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Is Single Room Heat Recovery Ventilation Worth It?

Charlie DIYte (CharlieDIYte) 88 views

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Comment from : @CharlieDIYte

did you try measuring co2 with it on and off during the day (of course if the people are in the room) My problem is actually bad air we breathing as co2 build up turns out we have open windows quite often to get rid of it house feels much better now, but nor looking at the meter and opening to cold air would be much better
Comment from : @mechadrake

Really interesting video I had considered installing one of these in a small room I use as a home office, as the CO2 builds up a lot, and I don't want to open a window in winter Seems the summary is, "yes it can potentially be useful to make rooms less stuffy, but tread carefully and don't do it for financial reasons as the manufacturers are wildly optimistic on their figures"brbrCheers
Comment from : @defragsbin

Is it possible to install a single mvhr unit into the ceiling as im in a bungalow rather than coring a hole
Comment from : @hansolo-m7p

The underfloor heating contributes significantly to the comfort of the room Keeping a constant, warmer temperature in the fabric of the building allows you to open a window and vent warm air without worrying that all your precious heat is escaping On the other hand, if you rely on a timed radiator that runs for only a few hours, it heats up the air, and when the air is vented, the heat escapes too Eventually, the timed radiator switches off, and because you've only been warming the air, there’s hardly any thermal mass built up As a result, the temperature quickly drops, the walls become very cold, and the air condenses Powerful ventilation systems like PIVs can reduce moisture by constantly moving the air, but they also push out radiator heated air and make the house colder My approach: 1 Extract moist air at source with good ventilation in kitchen and bathroom, regularly open windows in other rooms 2 Keep the heating on constantly (use a thermostat rather than a timer to turn heat on and off) and ensure that the fabric and contents of the house are heated, not just the air inside This can be expensive but with good insulation and an efficient boiler it is not that bad and worth it for the comfort it brings
Comment from : @frankief7111

Can anyone answer me if these types of units are good to add in multiple rooms (150 - 300 sqm) in my apartment for ventilation? Each room will be used with doors closed separatelybrbrAlso how much outside noise do these units leak inside, so based on it I can judge to spend on soundproofing on my windows or not as if its gonna be useless to do as these units leak noise nonetheless Are there other solutions to reduce CO2 levels in the rooms and also that will be good to use in a soundproofed room?
Comment from : @Rosanjo9

thanks for the videobrbrI also did a partial MHRV in an old Victorian terrace; the 3 beds in dormer floor and a Shower/WC and middle floor (office, Shower/WC, temporary kitchen and a sitting room) are all connected to it I love it and it works great - steady humidity, 24x7 trickled air, humidity sensor in wet rooms and best of all , no need to open the sash windows that have all been draught proofed and cumbersome secondary glazing addedbrbrI am now knocking the back of the house and building a new kitchen, utility and WC ( 45m2) which is not feasible to connect to the existing MHRV unit in Attic br br@laurencetayloruk When you say 'simple' what model did you go for ? I think I want 3 x double duct exhaust vents (kitchen, utility and WC) and perhaps a 1 x supply into the main house hallway and 1x into a tv den br brI also have a kitchen extractor to contend with, I would love to integrate this into MHRV as long as it did its primary functionbrbrideas welcome
Comment from : @abutw0

I installed a 5KW Chinese diesel heater under the stairs 3 years ago, kerosene fed from a 10l tank out side in the drive and is also fresh air fed So we get a constant feed of hot/warm fresh air into the house
Comment from : @BetsBestBits

I have 2 x ventaxia lo carbon fans I am at a high location with prevailing windsbrThe fans cut out noisy fan flap grill covers which in windy conditions would create a lot of noisebrHumidity is much reduced
Comment from : @nicks8829

very interesting Can you tell me, are these recommended if you have window trickle vents or should these be blocked off Reason I ask is that it turns out our trickle vents on our new windows are not good enough for our open plan room, only 13,000mm2 and we need 30,000mm2 So wondered about a single one of these to satisfy building control or a whooping 225 x 200 hole in the wall open vent to allow extra ventilation in (may as well leave a window open) thanks
Comment from : @PetHolidayFinder

What camera are you using?
Comment from : @donaldhutton3617

One interesting ventilation unit for small spaces I regularly recommand to my clients is the Zehnder ComfoAir 70 This is a crossflow unit, with a steeper pricetag But the big benefit of this unit is that de extraction intake hole can de extrended with a small duct This way you can suply a small studio while extracting a separate toilet for example
Comment from : @christiaang

Great videos,brbrI am currently trying renovating a shed into a living space with notorious damp problems and seen these systems it was very bad in the bedroom area as there was no window We are now adding a window a low down vent and a vent up hight to try get as much circulation as possible but I am wondering would I benefit from one of these in the bedroom rather than just a standard 4 inch vent
Comment from : @Caughtondrone

Really ? Are you that Poor ? Cost of the gizmo and the installbr Surely Make any $$ savings as illusory
Comment from : @barenekid9695

I live in a nice airy 60s house No cavity wall insulation Oil boiler It's warmer than it's ever been since I installed internal wall insulation and humidity is 40 Keep it simple stupid😂 Obviously not an option with new builds😂😂
Comment from : @danielmackenzie680

Lovely Car, Gorgeous Boots (and not the tyres)
Comment from : @russgladstone432

I like the Mitsubishi Lossnay vl-100 as it simultaneously supplies fresh air and extracts bad air But it's not as small as this one If you can get past that, I recommend it
Comment from : @Tom_Azin

Single room heat recovery ventilation units were installed quite frequently in early 2010s in Estonia when renovating and insulating old apartment buildings Nowadays pretty much nobody installs them anymore and if heat recovery ventilation is installed in an apartment building during renovation a centralised system is used I haven't read too much into why but I have three pretty good guesses:br1) 'Wet' rooms are usually placed in the centre of apartment buildings over here with a ventilation chimney going to the roof The principle of ventilation in these types of buildings is that you have fresh air coming from the outside walls through the bedrooms and being exhausted via the wet rooms which provides enough airflow to the bathrooms and toilets Single room heat recovery units are difficult if impossible to properly combine with bathroom exhaustsbr2) You are installing a fan in basically every room - keeping noise levels down to reasonable levels is tricky, especially in bedrooms With a centralised system noise dampeners are used to mitigate noisebr3) Their efficiency is not as great as with 'proper' heat recovery units
Comment from : @Rebasepoiss

I assume that the heat recovery benefit assumes that the device is installed in a cold climate (normally cold air outside and warm air inside) However, what would happen if you installed this in warm climate (tropical area with warm moist air outside and cold dry air inside)? Would it work?
Comment from : @Puzian

It would be much better to have two of these working in tandem, with each switch changing in/out direction Setup like in the video, it will either pull cold air into your house through air leaks or push warm air out of the leaks (There's no balance)
Comment from : @ivanjacob_

9:57 I guess it's unfortunate that the "correction" of your humidity improvement numbers aren't actually accurate, given that the stated 14 improvement would assume a target, ideal relative humidity of 0, which yeah, that's not something anyone wants to experience, ever, and certainly not in their living quarters The percentage change would depend on the target humidity
Comment from : @Kraaketaer

Charlie, thank you so much for your try & error into this very controversial subject I appreciate that you spend so much effort into changing the tube (but, yes, it was a sily idea to use a metal one But this error turned into a really good exercise in regards to the discussion metal vs PVC ) Any discussion whether or not this pays off is stupid First of all nobody has a cristal ball when it comes on how to judge costs over the time of x years And second, how do you want to judge the better air quality, the comfort it gives to you? I had the same discussion when I changed my windows to tripple ones And everyone one said that I won't live long enough to get it paid back What do they know about my life span??? 😂
Comment from : @HannibalLecter68

Your a class apart Charlie - thanks for tackling all the feedback I was looking at the vent axia because I wanted to maintain room temp better whilst extracting air Great follow up video on the topic thank you
Comment from : @JohnSmith-zy1ur

Such an interesting topic and video 👍😊 brcan you recommend a good extraction fan? Also, for any experts maybe reading this:brI'm having issues with thermal bridging coming from a big balcony (9x3m) and concrete sidewalk, both connected to the inside floor I did a 12cm EPS on the outside but didn't know how to correct those to 🤔🚧
Comment from : @luckystrike656

Thanks for the video!brbrI was wondering if you considered the Mitsubishi VL100? br brI need to have something in my truck camper (17mm2), co2 ppm levels are really high (1500-2200) br brI'm thinking about the Mitsubishi VL100 brBecause: br1 It's an ERV (humidity stuff) br2 No min wall thickness (my walls are 60mm), Not a hard limit, I can always build a box for it br brWould love to hear your thoughts on this or if you know of any other products that might fit me that I can research on
Comment from : @slimanus8m

I have a PIV to install (its a big to do list) and will probably use MHVR for my bathroom extractor
Comment from : @polla2256

I have been buying the ceramic cores only from China and putting them in the ventilation holes of my property with some carbon cooker mesh either side No fan, it is passively recovering heat and does so with the natural air movements of the building (which you can feel as the direction changes every so often) I have been happy with this, besides having no running costs (and much cheaper purchase cost) it allows ventilation to my property (which is draughty anyway being an old building) and does recover some heat I have thermal cameras etc and have not done a full analysis, last time I checked the core was above external by a few degrees which is obviously warmer than if the hole had nothing Anecdotally I currently think this a good solution (especially since in my home the 100mm holes were already there) The bathroom has an active MVHR
Comment from : @danielabrahams4061

Full marks for diligence and a very useful test of how much difference this sort of thing actually makes in practice
Comment from : @xxwookey

Nice follow up! Very gracious of you and very thorough
Comment from : @josephcullen2512

I LOVE how interactive this channel is ❤
Comment from : @KyleBevis-u7j

Having had 2 full mvhr units in my last houses I can categorically say they are junk, to get to the numbers they describe it had to run at near jet engine speeds, and was equally loud(yes exaggerating) the plastic cardboard heat exchange blocks are also hard to clean, and need to be cleaned regularly for efficiencybrbr I’m doing a couple of dmev in the house I’m currently building and a few exhaust fans,
Comment from : @Mongoose490

Great channel Charlie! I watched your swip wall vid How come you went for that over wood fibre or hemp and lime plaster? Just seemed more complicated with swip vs wood/hemp?
Comment from : @Hamishmcbeth

I had a look a while back, 1910s house needing a lot of love, a load of gypsum and damp proofing being removed and rightly replaced with lime I think the high efficiency is generally higher temp with a smaller difference when it actually means less (summer) I've lost 10 humidity just with a few trickle vents giving some better circulation from one side of the house the other brbrMight be an interesting topic going forward though, the weather in the UK getting a lot wetter and warmer as least for now, that's a spicy topic but might make these more practical
Comment from : @MrAlexshellard

Interesting bit of kit, I've never seen one before What I have seen are heat exchanger balaclavas; for extreme cold environments it recovers the heat when you exhale and returns it when you inhale! 😮
Comment from : @ElThomsono

Love your videos A video suggestion i would like to see is you going around your house with a thermal imaging camera identifying heat loss areas and fixing thembrThere are lots of videos with people identifying issues but non fixing them
Comment from : @MsAdam09

I always appreciate videos that acknowledge mistakes and failures, with strong references to community feedback 🙂👍
Comment from : @ZylonFPV

I literally don’t get it, heat recovery units are so expensive it’s not worth it I think you get the similar humidity with a good extractor fan, simply moving air is going to help
Comment from : @thomasbroker69

many thanks for the followup Great Videos
Comment from : @opentrail

We both know 'no'
Comment from : @thesmallnotesduo

It was great to see all the follow up information
Comment from : @Tarbard

Nice update, thank you
Comment from : @veronicathecow

Hi Charlie, the hygrometer is a good idea, but don't assume it is your fan that has reduced the relative humidity on its own Absolute humidity (not the same measurement as Relative Humidity) levels drop in the Winter months due to colder air being able to hold less moisture Relative humidity is a measurement of how much moisture the air can hold at a given temperature and pressure Change the temperature alone, and you will see the RH values change You may need to wait until warmer weather to test if the stuffiness returns brbrI'm enjoying your work, and appreciate your honesty Best wishes
Comment from : @pugmanick

I have done a Vent Axia MVHR retrofit on a 1989 house Allot of DIY work but straightforward We had mould condensation, stale air The house had no extractor fans!brbrUltimate efficiency was not the aim I wanted to solve the damp/mould/condensation issues I do not like PIV systems or Extractor fans as they dump all my heated air outside (££££) Also fitting four extractor fans would have been allot of work drilling ducts and running electrics
Comment from : @gregcope5565

What do you guys think about a system like the siegenia aeroplus wrg, it has balanced ventilation through a single pipe that is divided on the inside in supply and exhaust air The efficiency numbers I see here for central systems I have as well Eg exhaust air of 18 degrees and supply air of 14 degrees with a 2 degree outside temperaturebrbrWould that solve the issues mentioned in this video for these systems?
Comment from : @rikbootsman

The temperature overshoot in you living room is an indication of poor control Whilst you can adjust the setpoint down to accommodate the difference between setpoint and actual temperatures you are still running the heating harder than it needs to achieve your setpoint I've had the same problem in my living room and am in the process of installing a three term control (PID control) to better optimise the heating I've used PID controllers in industrial applications in the past and have always achieved really good levels of control For the easiest set a three term controller with 'self tuning' is best Once it has worked out the heating and cooling rates for your system (in this case the living room) it will know when to turn on the heating source and when to turn it off allowing for the system response time and adjusting the power demand
Comment from : @davidquirk8097

Hello, me again Since your last video, and prompted by the questions surrounding it, I purchased a CO2 meter Why?brUnless your house is very new, you have no idea what the 'natural' (ie from leaks) air change is And the recommendation ranges from 035 to 6 times an hour A massive range! What is really needed is a 'good' level of CO2- and that may be happening via this natural air change Moving the meter around the house, I have learned a lot, but tests are not yet finished Suffice to say, levels with two occupants (our normal situation) are within acceptable levels at all times A spell with six (including two active children) raised this, but not excessively- more tests neededbrBut what about moisture? Well, a separate discussion on this got me to 'run the numbers' on that Without heat recovery, a dehumidifier uses less that half the energy compared to air change (ignoring power used by the fan, and the extra heat from the dehumidifier) In practice, local extraction is probably the simplest solution ( condensation is usually local)- although condensation is often a cold bridge issue which should be addressed first (Unless you are drying clothes in the house without opening the windows- in which case the problem is not technology) Personally I have no condensation issues, and the humidity hovers in the 40 range brSo, what do I recommend? Buy a CO2 meter and a hygrometer (they often come together) Understand your levels of both before making any decisionbrBTW 'stuffyness' is caused by CO2 levels, not moisture
Comment from : @Tensquaremetreworkshop

any suggestions on a MVHR system we can fit ourselves ? Seems every model refers you to a survey and sales team rather than a price to buy
Comment from : @beastiecarrion

Gotta love your commitment to doing the best job possible mate Very good approach to work
Comment from : @MuddathirQ

We fitted a simple MVHR to extract from the bathrooms and supply fresh air to the hall Fantastic difference Way better than a simple extract because a lot of the humidity in a bathroom stays for hours after you have a shower No mould, hardly any condensation, constant fresh air in the house brDon't listen to the ventilation companies who say you have to tear your whole house apart and put valves in every room - a simple system like this is well worth it
Comment from : @laurencetayloruk

Happy Holidays 🌲
Comment from : @RS-Amsterdam

Charlie is only human to make mistakes, the real deal is to man up and admit that You did it Great job man I have 6 units in my house, they are amazing At a 25wh energy cost I have fresh air without dust and losing the temp in the house
Comment from : @nZebco

This advertising claim is bup to/b 100 not bullsh1t
Comment from : @Nick3DvB

It's important to realise these are not meant to fix humidity issues They give you whatever is outside mixed with whatever is inside They're intended to swap CO2 rich qir with low CO2 air Keep in mind you can breath nitrogen gas and not even realise anything is wrong until you pass out from lackmof oxygen It's high CO2 that the body does not like and can hurt you Also replacing VOC contaminated air with clean air But if the outside air is grubby as it is in the UK I'd want quality filtration on these Even in clean countries pollen could be an issue If you want tonfix moisture issues run a dehumidifier These work AGAINST a dehumidifier by pumping dry air out and humid air in I want to use a pair in a small 30sqm cabin that I intend to build SUPER tight and heavily insulated just to keep the air from getting stale, loaded with toxins, or high in CO2
Comment from : @fredio54

Hi Charlie, it's thanks to you that I've managed to bring under contol the humidity/mould issues in my 1970's ex council house I now monitor ever room, installed extractors in bathroom and kitchen, and installed a dehumidifier linked to home assistant for automation Big thanks, no more mould!
Comment from : @s9550110

For the hygrometer (Relative Humidity RH) meters (with temperature), it's worth getting (or creating) a simplified psychrometric chart that plots the lines of constant iabsolute/i humidity (gm water per cubic metre) across the temperature RH chartbrbrThis easily shows how the RH will change as temperature changes for any particular chunk of air, and especially the temperature point at which it will condense on the walls and windows brbrIt starts to become obvious how we need lower RH when we are heating rooms more (shirts sleeves rather than jumper territory;-) I have it in a pdf format, it's based on the CIBSE CPD modules
Comment from : @philipoakley5498

👍👍👍 Thank you Charlie
Comment from : @PeteTy1

A length of 6" uninsulated flexible duct inside an insulated 10" one makes a good core if you have an attic or crawl space or space in the room available (overhead?) Broan makes some extremely efficient and quiet bathroom exhaust fansbrOf course, make sure to vent all the way outside
Comment from : @RePeteAndMe

I live in a 1928 semi in London, 9ins solid walls, double glazed I have a Kair KHRV150/12RH in my kitchen, I fitted 6 years ago and a Ventura Tempra HTP/HTP SELV in my shower wet room fitted 1 year ago We also have an induction hob in the kitchen which should reduce generation of humidity Before these changes we used to have a humidity of 60-65 measured by our Nest CH controller in the hall Since that has dropped to 45-50 The Ventura is noisy (not a problem in a wet room) but it dries the wet room out very quickly (about 20 mins) The Kair in the kitchen is whisper quiet I was aware that the energy saving would not pay for the fans (about £300 each at the time of purchase) but I am pleased with the drop in humidity, our mould problems seem to be cured
Comment from : @mickinmerton8053

i dont like this unit mitsubishi has single pipe biflow system in and out through one hole
Comment from : @tarassu

hi charlie you're ahead of the game with indoor air qualitya hidden danger and killerim not too fussed about any paritculate matter coming from a log burner, but the fact is that they do give off harmful particles, and the underfloor heating is the way forwards i have neither, the former for health reasons and the latter for cost reasons, but one day will go the underfloor heating route i will still however have a log burner for the odd burn and also to keep my chimneys dryultimately i dont worry too much about a chimnea so wouldnt over the burner the point you mak wwith regard to quality of life is keylife is not about roi alone i put off replacing a boiler on that basis and having recently changed ours the quality of life we have in th ehouse is worlds apart
Comment from : @russcain2082

Man has been ventilating his home for 1000’s of years without using expensive electric sucking systems is easy…Open a nearest window for a few mins during or after showering or shitting or attempting to make bad/maybe edible food…easy…bloody bs modern ways🤣
Comment from : @nishnet8882

Any idea on how would this perform in terms of humidity if the problem is caused by outside humidity levels?brWould the air coming still help the house to get lower levels of humidity?
Comment from : @TheAllMightyGodofCod

Single room heat recovery system in uk absolutely useless electricity suckers for 99 of us nowadays If shit or your bad cooking stinks, open a small window for a few mins😂😂😂😂
Comment from : @nishnet8882

One of the Blauberg Vento units does achieve a high airflow on boost mode, similar to a fan But most of them are probably half that of a fanbrThe Ecostream Prana units use a copper heat exchanger instead of a ceramic core, but do need a thicker wall or some sort of spacer to fit
Comment from : @Paul-yh8km

What about Zehnder products? Any opinions?
Comment from : @PetrKlus

Hi Charlie, good video on heat recovery, the heat difference between metal and plastic ducting, good thing you swapped As always a great video, all the best Merry Christmas
Comment from : @shaun30-3-mg9zs

There are multivariate factors that can't simply be accounted for in how long it will take for an ERV/HRV to pay itself back based on the cost of energy br- You may ventilate way more with them than an ordinary ventilation system, improving indoor air quality, with no additional cost in energy br- The saving in energy may also result in you needing a smaller heat pump to cover your load, saving substantial money in hardware br- If you are comparing to a house with poor ventilation, it may save you from long term costs from moisture issues br- If configured correctly it improves airflow in the house which leads to a more consistent indoor environment, potentially lowering the temperature you run the house at, providing big savings br- A ventilation system is the price you have to pay to have an airtight house in general, which is good for both durability of the house as well as energy savingsbr- Also, worth noting that ordinary ventilation systems aren't cheap either, so the payback should be calculated based on the price difference not the total cost of the ERV
Comment from : @bastiat691

Piv, turned mine off, created a cold draught on my landing and it is a heated unit
Comment from : @shane24v

The foam did a very good job wrapping the metal tube
Comment from : @ridgmont61

Great video
Comment from : @Swwils

Great video Charlie I've been trying to work out what to do with our little holiday let chalet which is empty most of winter with 70 humidity brbrMould forms in a few places I've left windows on the catch to create airflow but not sure if installing these units are a better option, or if I just have a few dehumidifiers runningbrbrDoes anyone have any views?
Comment from : @seanduffy2214

Pretty dumb to instal thermal bridge thru your insulated walls 🤦‍♂️
Comment from : @pangrac1

I suspect those efficiency figures are based on how much heat they accumulate from the outgoing air on a single pass The real world efficiency is much lower because after the first out/in cycle the residual heat left over in the core is subtracting from how much heat can be recovered on the subsequent cycle
Comment from : @davidcoghill8612

Thank you Charlie thought provoking
Comment from : @paulzirker706

Found who you're going with for the cushion/backing/foam in your seating? I went with foam2home afaik they have a uk site also(taxes and what not) pretty decent cut to shape 10cm thick of medium foam with 4cm memory foam topper, in saying all this i didn't do much looking but did the jobbrbrYour video has reminded me i need to sort my electric water heater the fan and compressor has been on alot more this month and annoying me, if that's the time of year or not i couldn't tell you
Comment from : @andyderp6473

I have a Meaco air circulator in my kitchen, it's a bungalow It cools the whole house, no heat recovery yet I am lucky with south facing and all that, but personally I think a well designed air control strategy can often be done with a lot less than you thinkbrbrStill something about reversing the flow makes me feel off, must be similar to crossing the streams or something
Comment from : @3d1e00

Direct energy savings are one thing, comfort improvements are another Having the humidity at a more comfortable level often means broadening the range of temperatures that are pleasant Living near the coast, humidity here is always very high I got a dehumidifier, and that has saved me money by allowing a lower temperature to be kept without discomfort It means also, no condensation or mould issues Perhaps one day I could consider an MVHR to do the same job?
Comment from : @truckerallikatuk

What is this fixation with payback? If it makes life more comfortable, for whatever price, or you just like it, do it! Life it too short Thanks Charlie Merry Christmas
Comment from : @TinTentTourist

Really appreciate your reviewing the comments including the most qualified and prolific Puts your channel a step above
Comment from : @acchaladka

We fitted an Alnor unit, which I don't think you mentioned: wwwventilation-alnorcouk/assets/files/technical-sheets/HRU-WALL-Heat-Recovery-Unit-Inside20Wall-AlnorpdfbrbrI suspect the main benefit is the low-speed constant ventilation, which keeps the air fresh
Comment from : @robinbennett5994